In this episode, Aubrie Kavanaugh talks with us about animal welfare topics. She created Paws 4 Change as a platform for humane education and brings awareness to 6 important topics. She is also part of No-Kill Huntsville which started in 2012 and is comprised of local animal welfare advocates, rescuers, and shelter directors who seek better for their community. Thanks to their work and partnership with city officials animals in their shelter now have a greater chance of making it out alive. Welcome to the Professionals and Animal Rescue podcast, where a goal is to introduce you two amazing people helping animals and share how you can get involved with animal rescue. This podcast is probably sponsored by do bert dot com. Do Bert is a free website designed to connect volunteers with rescues and shelters and the only site that automates rescue relay transport. Now on with our show, every Kevin A joins us today. It’s the creator of Pause for Change and a passionate advocate for No Kill Huntsville. Located down in Alabama, they’re a coalition of local animal welfare advocates, rescuers and shelter directors who came together starting in 2012 to speak with one voice to seek better for their community. They strive to make Huntsville on local community a place where healthy, untreatable animals were not destroyed and their municipal shelter using tax dollars and resource is because they’re proven ways to save them. Hey are very welcome to the program. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. So tell us a little bit about you and kind of your path and how you got into rescue. It’s kind of an unusual story. I grew up in an animal friendly household. I mean, we always had pets, and then most of them had human names and they were just part of the family on and we just accepted them imperfections and all. They were always rescued animals, and after I was grown, I ended up going in the military, which is probably another story for a separate podcast. I served in the Army for over a decade before I got out, and then I ended up working in the legal field, which is what I do now. I worked as a paralegal, but I think I really got involved in this topic. It was 2006 and we had a German shepherd mix who had had failing health for a number of years, and we knew that we wouldn’t be able to keep her around. We have to let her go, and we got to a point in 2006 where we decided to have her euthanized and we didn’t plan ahead. We just decided that day that it was enough that we didn’t. We couldn’t allow her to suffer, and it turned out later it was Earth Day and we didn’t know it at the time. But even though I knew that this was coming after she left us, I really wasn’t coping well. I actually felt quite broken and it seemed like nothing could console me. So I was trying to turn this negative into a positive. So I started donating supplies to my local animal shelter on the anniversary of her death each month, which would have been the 22nd of each month in it. It was just stuff like the dryer sheets and dog biscuits and blankets and hit for right. And I did that until one day I was on the website for the animal shelter and I saw that there was a video there, um, about adoption and rescue. So I started watching it and my intent at the time Waas I was gonna watch it. And then if I thought it was good, I was going to share it with people to encourage other people to make adoption and rescue their first option. And it was a municipal recorded video, and it kind of cruised along for a while, and it was a little dry, but I said, Okay, well, this might help some people But then, about 10 minutes in it got to the point where the shelter director started to talk and she was talking not on screen, that you could just hear her voice in the background. And she was talking about how hard this city tried to save animals but that they just really couldn’t save them all. There were too many, you know, that was that your irresponsible public that led her to have too many animals in her building. And it showed footage of a beagle being taken from a kennel and walked down the hallway to a room, and I quickly realized what was happening. Waas. They were recording footage of a dog being taken to be euthanized, and I couldn’t stop the video fast enough. I mean, my face started to burn. I felt my ears getting hot. I was fumbling around with my mouse trying to stop this video, and to this day, I I don’t know that they showed the act itself. I don’t believe they did, but it just it blew my mind, and I contacted the shelter director the following day to find out. First of all was the dog in the video really destroyed and and secondly, to tell her that I thought she should be more careful about having a video on her website that Children might see. And in response to my inquiry about the dog, she said, Oh, yeah, And then she said five words I’m never gonna forget. Nobody wants Biggles of these days. The door was in the manner in which she spoke about this dog. She could have been speaking about an old couch or used laptop. It was just so disconnected from the permanence of the act that I just really got angry, to be perfectly honest, and I had no point up to that. I had no idea. Excuse me up to that point, what was really happening at the shelter? I think like most people, that I thought that most of Daniel animals got put up for adoption or if they didn’t maybe something, maybe they were hurt. Or at that point, I really believed in something called pet overpopulation is being the reason why animals dying shelters and but that’s just it really was an epiphany for me, and after that point I started educating myself on a variety of topics, including a concept called No kill sheltering and other things that are related to it like, um, breed bands and puppy mills and something called trap neuter in return for free roaming cats. All these things that were kind of intertwined issues that lead to why we have animals in shelters in first place. So that really was kind of my tipping point, and it led me to develop a Web platform, which I still have today. It’s called Pause for Change, and it’s an intentional plan works. I want people to pause and think about what they believe, or they think they know and perhaps change some of their perspectives. And my audience is really very much just people like me, people that are not scholars, people that are not researchers that are just for the animal loving public that perhaps have beliefs that are not entirely correct or may want to do the right thing. And they’re not sure how to do that. You So now put this in perspective for us. So I mean, what part of the country you and Aubrey? I’m actually in Alabama right now? Okay. And then you started Pause for change in in what year it was in 2006. Okay. And so since then. So that event, it sounds like it really changed you it. Actually, I tell people that it changed my life path. And when I say that I still have the job that I have, I mean on a litigation paralegal. I’ve worked in the law for more than 25 years, and I have what I call an unfortunate trifecta which causes my behavior. I grew up with animals, but I have a military background, which means I have some pretty strong opinions about things like free speech and accountability for how tax dollars are spent and then add to it the legal part of it. We actually do a lot of defensive cities and counties, municipal defense, and of law enforcement. So combine all those things together in that just may be, I think, a different kind of advocate than I otherwise would be because I see things from different perspectives. But it absolutely changed my life passed because my job is my job. But I would say that this is my passion and, um, I initially when I started possible change, initially it was really just video production workers, strangers, that seems. I started doing photo slide shows set to music for some non profit groups using music that belongs to friends of mine. That’s copyright cleared and and then I develop my website. But then after that, I thought, you know what just happened to videos on a website? I mean, I’m not competing with you too, So I made my website a fuller platform. And when people go on there now, I have some pages about different issues. I do have some video stuff on there, but I try to make it more of an educational platform in hopes of reaching more people. So that is absolutely my passion. And I do that to this day. I keep my website, but I do video production work for different groups across the country and just on basic subjects any group can use. Use it if they want. I do some public service announcements for TV. Locally on guy would say that I’m pretty politically active when it comes to issues related to animal welfare. Okay, now I noticed you’ve got six. You know, specific issues on the website. How did you arrive at those sets. I arrived at those six because I think those were the six things that play most into why we have animals and animal shelters. Because, yes, these air, for the most part, owned animals that end up in animal control systems. But ah, lot of them end up there because of these different issues, like puppy mills in the United States. We whether you call commercial dog breeders a puppy mill or not, and that’s a very sensitive topic. So I try to be careful how I use that phrase because we mass produce dogs. We have dogs that are infused into the system and for some people become the first choice of how they get a dog. And because of having millions of dogs produced in our country every year, well, that ultimately will lead to more dogs being in shelters. We have issues in our country with free roaming cats, and if there was, cats aren’t handled appropriately and humanely through something called a trap neuter. In return, we got TNR. Those cats can end of it animal shelters, and most of them are really just similarly destroyed. We have issues with dogs that are chained on and treated as resident dogs that remember, really socialized to people properly. And a lot of times these dogs are either involved in attacks or family just gives up on them because they’ve never taken the time to train. And again that dog ends up in the shelter. So to me, those those six things to me or what I consider the puzzle pieces of animal welfare that lead for the most part to shelter intake. So walk me through a typical week for you. I mean, help me understand how you go about educating people and advocating for these particular causes in any particular week. I’m just trying to keep temped in with what’s going on, not only in my own local area, about a national level, so that I can continue to keep people educated on certain topics. The issues pages on my website. They remain, for the most part, the same other than when I update them periodically, just kind of bringing more current. But I do block regularly, and I try to block on topics that I think will help people, whether it’s something related to the subject of commercial dog breeding we had there was an article in The Washington Post recently that was written by Kim Kavin, who’s the author of a book called The Dog Merchants. And I did a Q and A with Kim after her Washington Post article came out about her research and about what led to that article being published. But then I also have a simple blog’s that have to do with things like grief and loss. I’m coming up on the two year anniversary of a seven to euthanize our dog on the Fourth of July. So I recently wrote a block just reflecting back on that which didn’t really focus on the fact that he was euthanized but focused on the fact that everybody needs to have a good, solid plan for veterinary care. Not not. Assume that your ordinary veterinarian is gonna be able to jump through a hoop for you on a holiday and really have a solid Plan B so that you can make sound choices when something terrible is going on and you may not be thinking clearly. So, um, in any given week, I’m I’m dealing with people on social media by email, just dealing with issues that have come up either locally or nationally, just exchanging ideas. We have some issues in Alabama, as you might expect related to animals sheltering on. And it seems like I always have something going on with some issue in my area. We had a woman recently that ran up. She ran out county funded animal shelter, and she ended up being arrested for animal Cruel. It’s cool to excuse me, and she was recently sentenced. So I mean, I wrote about that because I think that people need to know not only how tax dollars were spent, but that’s something called no kill, which I know we’re gonna talk about that. That’s a phrase that’s not universally understood in which is often misused. Yeah, I was just going to say What? Why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about that? I mean, the term no kill is often thrown about, and it means different things to different people. So maybe expand a little bit on that in terms of no kill. I’m part of something that I would consider the no kill movement and what no kill means is it’s first of all, it’s not a definition. It doesn’t mean animals never die. What it does mean is that we don’t kill healthy and treatable animals in our shelters, which are funded by tax dollars in donations. It means that in those places, animals are absolutely euthanized if they’re suffering, or if they’re so are gone medically, that any veterinary measures that might be taken taken would simply just prolong their lives for a very short period of time and within the no kill movement, it also allows for the destruction of dogs who are in a shelter who are not just scared or maybe traumatized, but who present a genuine public safety risks. In other words, dogs that something cognitively there’s something wrong with them and they really are a threat to people. So they need to be destroyed because we can’t let them out in the public where they could hurt a child or kill someone. Um, so I I actually I consider no kill a social movement is even though we have a lot of large animal welfare organizations in our country, from my perspective, having been a Nokko advocate for about 10 years now, what I’m seeing is that the people that are doing a lot to bring about changes in their community are truly people in what we call the weeds there. Grass roots advocates that air just kind of band with each other across the country to help each other to help bring about change in their own community. I think that one of your prior interviews was with Kathy Pavlovsky, who’s right there in your state and Cassie and Iron Network because of her involvement with the no kill movement. And I’ve got contacts across the country from Gosha Get folks and in Florida and Virginia and New York and New Jersey and Minnesota in Texas and Colorado in California, they’re just all over the place. Yeah, I know. And it’s really interesting that you mentioned Kathy and networking and, you know, for our listeners, Cathy, you can listen to her podcast. Kathy focuses on lost dogs, right? And it just an example of how all of these issues come together. Many lost dogs end up in shelters and then just do the various issues. They end up being you tonight, so somebody’s family members somebody’s own pet can actually end up being euthanized, right? And I think I think initially, if memory serves I think that’s how we connected because I had done volunteered to do a project for Rob Goddard of Helping Lost Pets, which is a platform that people can use to hell. Posts that have had is lost or or post about a found petits map based. And I actually had done at one of my slide shows has just got a little video thing at the end, using a wonderful song by the Drina Thorpe called Coming Home, which was perfect for that topic. Because you’re right, I mean and I think a lot of people assume that when an animal ends up in a shelter that maybe that animal is there due to someone’s your responsibility or callousness. And that’s really not always the case. I mean, gosh, gates, get left open, Jock dogs, Jump fences. I mean, Fourth of July’s coming up. I don’t even know how many animals we’re gonna be displaced by fireworks because they’re gonna get freaked out and they’re gonna flee and that that animal may end up in a shelter. But it’s not because those somebody didn’t care enough. I mean, life just happens. Yeah, now that’s a It’s a really good point. It’s one of the things when I, you know I’m like you a network with people. When you’re talking with members of the general public and I tell them some of the things I do you know, people are very proud to say that they rescue their dog, right? They adopted their dog from a shelter from a rescue. And one of the first questions I’ll ask them is, Do you know how the animal got there? And they’ll usually kind of look at me and look oh, you know what? I I never really thought of that. And so I Trey, trying to elaborate and explain the various ways and that we do have overpopulation in some areas. And you know, there’s a There’s a whole lot of reasons behind that. Um, and you know, they need to understand what they can do and how they can actually help. I agree completely, and we talked about before it regarded regarding the no kill topic. I actually what I was doing with Pause for Change ended up working into something locally, and I also getting back to my What do I do? During a typical week, I lead an advocacy group in Huntsville, Alabama, called No kill hunt spell, and that’s taken up quite in my time over the last. I’d say eight years, and I’m kind of hoping that we’re winding down a little bit, but it’s pretty much been a seven day a week effort for a period of years. Yeah, no, I mean, definitely. This is something that nobody’s making money in the animal rescue business. I mean, we’re all just working our day jobs to be ableto work our nights and weekends job. But we’re passionate, right? And this is something that you’re trying to focus on the no kill movement in Huntsville on and specifically in your area, right? Right. And it’s Ah, and this is one of the things where it really has been a grassroots thing in Huntsville. I mean, people, people think in general of Alabama since I grew up in California will admit that I held this belief that one time the Alabama is just kind of back. We’re just kind of lost in a different century. And But now that I live in Alabama in Huntsville in particular, hospital is it’s just a incredible place. I mean, we’re progressive we’re proud. I mean, we support the space program. We have Marshal Space Flight Center, the contact of mine that runs a local TNR for cats. She is literally a rocket scientist at NASA, which I was just kind of marvel at. But so we have on one end, we have unskilled labor. We have a lot of agricultural contra farming. But where tech, where a medical were a military home. So once Bill is very progressive in spite of that progressive culture in general and even cultural diversity, we have a lot of people from other countries in other states. I learned years ago after this this unfortunate conversation with shelter director that at that time probably 25% of the animals entering the shelter made it out, and I just found that just mind boggling. And I took some steps a few years ago to try to get the city to change on its own. We had had a new mayor come into office, and I had seen him on the news with his dog chip wearing a collar that said, First dog. And I thought, Here’s a guy can have a conversation with So I wrote him a letter about how our animal shelter was functioning and just said that I thought we could do better and I mentioned the no kill movement. I gave him a copy of a book written by a man named Nathan Winograd, who in 2007 wrote a book called Redemption. The Myth of Pet Doctor. Excuse Me, Pet Overpopulation and the No Kill Revolution in America. I gave a copy of that to the mayor, and I just said, I think we can do better And much to my surprise, after he got sworn into office, he asked to meet, and I did have a meeting in his office. I think he had been in office a couple of weeks and had a meeting in his office. The shelter director was there. We had a conversation and I offered to pay for her to go toe a no kill conference, which was coming up in Washington, D. C. That summer. And she did go. But after that, things just really didn’t change a lot. So a few years later, I said, You know what? I can’t be an army of one. I think I need to be one of many. So I invited some, uh, nonprofit shelter directors and, uh, like minded animal welfare advocates and rescuers to come together. And we formed no kill Huntsville in 2012 to try to change the way the city was running the municipal animal shelter. Yeah, no, it sounds like you’ve made tremendous progress. And as you said, I mean, it’s all in your perspective, and there are a lot of misconceptions that people have about very serious of the country and how people treat animals. And you’re really diving in and on the front lines, trying to make a change well, and I’ll have to tell you now, and I don’t want to get to do that. What Mom would have called the nitty gritty of it. But are are our battle in Huntsville, really, was that it was a battle. When we first banded together, we did a lot of research. We networked with like minded vocal advocates across the country, some of whom run no kill animal shelters and again, getting back to know kill means we don’t kill healthy and treatable animals doesn’t mean no animals ever die. And so we figured it. If we did a lot of homework and went to the city and said, Okay, this is what you could be doing instead, which is what I had tried to do years earlier, but on my own, I had just failed miserably. But our plan. Let’s go to the city and say, Hey, we’d like to help and you know, this is what they’re doing in Austin. This is what they’re doing in Minnesota. This is what they’re doing in California. We had hoped that we’d get a positive response to that, and actually, we did not. We offer the city free help by a subject matter expert that would have been completely confidential. The public wouldn’t ever have known about it, and the answer was no. And after we got that answer on the wall went up in front of us. We decided, well, we had no choice but to take our issue public, and that’s exactly what we did. And and then we stroll, are engaged with the public. We went on a public education campaign using the media using billboards. At one point, we showed the documentary film based on the book Redemption on the local high school, just any way that we could to try to engage with the public and explain to them this is what’s happening at your local animal shelter and if you’re okay with it, great. But if you’re not okay with it, please join with us and please speak out in letting our local elected official officials know that you’re not okay with it and that you don’t want your money spent to destroy healthy and treatable animals when the same animals could be saved. So we went through a period of what I’ll call the ugly years. And again, I won’t get into the details of that because they really they’re they’re pretty much in the rear view mirror, for the most part. But when we formed local counsel in 2012 the life release rated the shelter had risen to 40% but it was still pretty low. I mean, that’s I have two animals being killed, and you’re we are fast forward to 2018 and the light release rate at the shelter has been right around 90% sometimes a little. I’m slower for a period of years. And when we last met with the city administrator, in September, he told us that the city had not destroyed any healthy, treatable animals for space in three years. And it’s great. Well, we still we still have some issues. We have dogs, as most areas do. We have a lot of dogs in our area that are large. We have a lot of dogs in our area that are not well socialized to people. We have a lot of tipple type dogs, and we do have some issues locally with insurance companies like home under insurance companies that have those dogs exclusions under their policy. Or maybe a landlord will not rent to someone who has a pit bull dyke dog, which is again the Civic for completely different podcast. But he’s going to say we could die without for hours giving a talk with it. So sometimes dogs come in and they come in okay, but then they degrade when they’re in the shelter too long, and we’ve been making some effort to try toe work on some enrichment programs to offset that. So we still have some issues have to be fine tuned in terms of some of the dogs, but I think that now looking back. I think that this has become a point of pride for the city of Huntsville, Alabama. I think if you were to talk to the mayor of the city administrator or even the shelter director, she her job is completely different than what it was years ago, when so many animals died. And at the time she said that she was doing a beautiful job, and I think back then she really believed that. Not that I think she was a bad person. I think she was just kind of stuck in a culture that said, Hey, this is a good as it gets and on story we’re doing this. But now here we are 2018. It’s a completely different culture. Think, um, unity is engaged. Animals are being saved. I was down there on Friday to walk some dogs, and the building was full of potential adopters and people were volunteering and Children were outside and player is playing with dogs. So it’s just a completely different thing, and it was uncomfortable for a long time, and it did take political advocacy, but on we’re not quite done yet. We have work to do, but but I feel like So I’m not going to sit there and say Mission accomplished. But we’re getting really close, I hope to a time when no kill Huntsville. Just really We won’t be needed in this role anymore, because the city will have made a commitment. And we could just kind of go back to doing what we were doing before we all joined together and decided to rock the community, but for change. Yeah. So, uh, Graham curious. I mean, what would you say to people that we’re listening to this podcast? I mean, what would you say to members of the general public? I would say to members of the general public, First of all, find out what’s going on in your own community with your animal shelter, because every every area has some type of animal shelter that’s funded either by tax dollars or, in some cases, also funded by donations. And just see what’s going on there. Because when I first started no kill Huntsville, I was talking to some folks that were I had a coworker that was just mortified. When I told her the animals died at the shelter. She said, Oh, my gosh, I thought every animal there got put up for adoption and I had to say, No, that’s not true. So I think I think what we have is that we have a disconnect between the animal loving public and the shelter and even the rescue community. It’s like it’s like we’re on opposite sides of a chasm, and on one side is animal loving public. That and not everybody loves animals. I get that. But most people like animals, and even if they don’t have them in their lives, they think it’s a moral imperative that we should keep them alive whenever we can’t. But they just kind of assumed that shelters are doing that. But then, on the other side we have shelters and rescues who, many of which are overwhelmed, and they’re blaming what they call the irresponsible public for the fact that they’re having to destroy animal. So if you’re if you’re a member of the public in your community, look at what’s happening at your local animal shelter, their weight, maybe ways that you can help your shelter, either by fostering volunteering, adopting an animal, you can help with an event while at the same time looking at your own behavior because this isn’t all. Let’s point the finger of blame at shelters. I mean, how the public behaves is so incredibly important. If you have pets, keep them contained. If you have pets, please please get them microchipped. I’m not opposed to callers that have names on them with cats. We really need breakaway collar city. Don’t strangle themselves, but colors are great but a microchip because it gets implanted under the skin. It’s the form of identification that just doesn’t go away. Make sure they’re chips so that they could be identified if they get out. Spay and neuter your pets. I think a lot of people don’t have animals spayed and neutered, but it’s for it’s for human reasons. They’re humanizing their animals. You probably heard things of Oh, I just wanted to have one letter so that she could enjoy motherhood. Well, I mean, she’s not your daughter. She’s your cat. And while you may love your cat, no, you can’t really doesn’t need thio. Have one letter to somehow lead a healthier life, so speak to your pets because that way that cuts down on pet populations in the community. Don’t have dogs outside on chains. There’s a reason why every national welfare and organization in America is opposed to chaining. It creates a situation where dogs become territorial tow the property on which you keep them and they are doing are inherently a public safety risk. They may not be a public sick Eurest or risk to your family, but they could ultimately be a risk to people in your community. Socialize those dogs. It just make better personal choices. I think that people, when it comes to animal sheltering, we’re We’re all very much focused on what’s in our personal radar, and most of us don’t think what happens that our local animal shelter we don’t think about it all. And we don’t think about how our personal behavior affects what happens at the shelter. But it absolutely does way. Expect shelters in the United States to stop destroying healthy, untreatable animals. We can’t just point at the shelter and say, Stop doing that. We are all absolutely part of that solution through our own personal behavior. Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with what you’re saying is take the take the responsibility. There’s a lot of things that people could do in a lot of ways that they can get involved in. You know, as I always say, regardless what your background is, you and I come from completely different backgrounds with completely different skill sets. But both of us are able to contribute to the animal rescue community and to work towards making a positive change. And I think that even for another thing for individuals is if they don’t like what they see, get involved. I mean, if you if you end up discovering that your shelter destroys healthy and trade of Lina, Listen, you don’t like that will say something about it. I mean, the people that we elect to govern our communities, they are public servants and they’re spending our money, so be out. Spoken about it. I think if it if anything is important enough to you to be outraged about it, I have a phrase I use called Own your outrage. I mean, if your outrage will do something with that outrage, speak out about what you want now, respectfully and diplomatically. I mean, it’s not enough to yell and scream and call people names. We’ve never in no kill Huntsville. We have never ever engaged in name calling because our our thing has always been about municipal accountability. But be respectful. But go to this. People that govern you and say I don’t like this. I wanted to change. I want my money spend in different ways and encourage them to learn about the no kill movement and something called the No kill equation, which it really is a one size fits all solution that could be adopted in any place without someone coming and fixing things from the outside. I mean, I think a lot of people think, Well, who’s gonna come in here and clean this up? Well, well, we’re gonna clean it up, and we’re gonna look at what works in other communities and work it, look at the no kill equation and figure out okay, How can we implement that here and beyond the political advocacy There’s just other simple things that you could D’oh. I mean, you could be on the Facebook page for the shelter, and you can share posts about Doc’s needing new homes. I mean, you could do it. I I I’ve been trying to do once a week go down to the shelter and walk some dogs. I mean, take some good photographs. And until people about the cats, they’re in need of homes there. So, so many small things you can do. I mean in our shelter. We We’ve been doing this Kong enrichment program where we encourage people to donate toys to the dogs. Thio help alleviate boredom, boredom on, keep them from degrading. And people can literally go down to our shelter to be a Kong expert, and they go down there and a clean and wash kongs, and they stuff him with kibble and peanut butter, said they distribute to the animals. And that’s something that’s so simple. And it takes a very little time. Yep. Well, it says Great Aubrey, and thank you so much for everything you’re doing to educate people and to raise awareness to these issues. Is there anything anything else you want to share before we wrap things up? I did want to say a few words to people in the rescue community. Um, I think that because of my advocacy, and like a little cool advocacy, I’m not held in universally high regard by some people in rescue. I help a lot of people in rescue. I mean, a lot of my volunteer work is for people that run not on profits and for rescuers. But I learned with the bad years of No constable that some of our most vocal opponents were people in the rescue community, which was surprising to me because I know they want to help analysts, and I know that they work really, really hard to help animals each and every day. I mean it for them. Most rescuers I know it really is a seven day a week job, and most of them, it’s to their own personal detriment. I mean, they don’t go to movies, they don’t go out to dinner. They will take their personal money to help an animal get veterinary care. It’s just constant. So what I would say to people in the rescue community is this. I would say that you are some of the most hardworking people I’ve ever met, and you have my respect absolutely on I’m not sure how you juggle a full time job, your family and rescue all at the same time. I mean, it really is your Renaissance men and women. Having said that, what I would ask of you, please. Is this on when you’re dealing with those rescue animals, which we stunk sometimes called starfish? Because the starfish watch a washed up on the beach and we try to save them one at a time? Look at the bigger picture. Try to figure out where all these animals coming from toward maybe helping the public, make better choices. And how come we better, as a community, help the animals? Because in any given community, the solution Thio ending Elsie untreatable animals being destroyed is not just span, neuter and rescue groups helping them. There’s they’re they’re much bigger issues at play in terms of programs that can work together so that we can stem the flow of those animals coming from the public. And if they end up in shelters, we can get them out of those shelters faster. I just think I’m hoping for a day when people and rescue our not so overwhelmed and are not bearing the complete burden of this subject on their own shoulders. But they’re looking past helping a dog or be cat to the bigger picture and helping to engage with the public and with shelters so we can all collectively make better choices. Very well said, Well, thank you so much, all of you, for coming on the program. We appreciate it, and I appreciate the opportunity, Thank you very much. Thanks for tuning into today’s podcast if you’re not already a member, joined the Air P A. To take advantage of all the resources we have to offer. And don’t forget to sign up with do bert dot com. It’s free and helps automate the most difficult tasks in animal rescue.